Adil

I can't let this one go. Where do you get that GOD doesn't want us to have knowledge? I don't know everything about the Bible but I'm pretty sure it doesn't say "Thou shall not know anything for yourself". What would be the purpose? We are supposed to do for ourselves and rely on GOD for help. The Bible does say that GOD helps those that help themselves. We have to have knowledge to do for ourselves. GOD don't want us just to set around and do nothing while we wait for Him to everything. The first humans to walk this planet had to have knowledge granted to them from GOD or the human race would have went extinct along time ago. How did the first people know what to eat or how to procreate so there could be another generation? Knowledge granted from GOD. That survival instinct that a new born has to take that first breath. That is knowledge granted from GOD.

Most of the species on earth need a male and female in order to further the species. I just can't see that happening without some kind of plan from a higher power.

Sometimes I don't trust doctors and medicine because man is fallible. I do believe that science has given mankind many lifesaving abilities. But here is where I drive you crazy. I believe that is knowledge that GOD granted us because we needed it to further the human race. If we get answers from science and the answers just sound wrong then I have the right to be skeptical. That goes back to the point I made about man's beliefs and opinions affecting the outcomes that are arrived at.

My point about the scientist in "Expelled" is that he acknowledged the likelihood of a higher power, but refused to believe that the higher power could be GOD. I'm sure that he is not the only Atheist that has that opinion. Again this example is a scientist with a big brain, who has seen evidence that lets him say that there is a likelihood or probability of a higher power, just not GOD.

Again I have never said that I have all the answers, but I know the one that does. You are right that I can't say who created GOD, just that it says in the Bible "In the beginning GOD created the heaven and the earth" Gen 1:1. It doesn't say where GOD came form just that He has always been. Apply faith here. I know that argument will fall on deaf ears but that is what I have.

Please don't believe that anyone is special enough for GOD to come down here and straighten them out Himself. GOD and Jesus (one and the same) are the perfect gentleman and won't impose on anyone that don't welcome it. Also everyone is different. It takes different paths for individuals to find Jesus and GOD. Some will have to have the fear before they can have the love. Not everyone learns the same. And some nuts are harder to crack.

Anyway Thanks again and GOD BLESS

i was told just to have faith well i used to but too many times i was dissapointed and hurt and no it wasnt anything i did the only thing i did wrong was pray and think god would do something and christians and their comebacks and excuses and justifications and the finger pointing everything is our fault if things go wrong but if things go right its not us but god so god is in good times but not in bad umm who sent the flood? all i know i left church i literally heard enough finger pointing accusations and personal attacks and insults hmm did people forget about the devil oh the one who comes to rob kill and destory the one who the battle is supposed to be against but not he doens have to when bad christians do it instead

all i know is that jesus is not stuck in the past and david killing goliath does not occur everday it happened once very long time ago and jesus isnt crucifed every good friday bottom line jesus lives today which is not a metahphor

but which is it i cant have a present relationship with jesus in his past he isnt there neither am i!!!!!! christians let go of his past hes not there and netither were you get over it no christian is a member of the trinity yet many dont know that

i hate it when christian presents their opinions as biblical or sound doctrine hank kimball from green acres makes more sense that idiot never made sense!!!!

correction: I misread the Ben Stein part. I thought you were saying an alien mating with a plant, not an alien ejaculating in a puddle.

The alien thing isn't very useful because that person would have to explain the alien's existence, too. But again, causation gets us nowhere.

Nicholas Cumberledge: “I most certainly don't hate the pursuit of knowledge. I just look at that as GOD giving us more.” Tree of knowledge. GOD didn’t want humans to have knowledge. GOD is immutable and doesn’t change his mind about anything, since he knows everything (omniscience) already. So why do you think GOD wants us to have knowledge now? It’s like you said: “GOD is the same today as He was 2000 years ago. And He'll be the same tomorrow.”

“It gets to the point that there is no reason to listen to the world of science because it is just going to change again and we'll be expected to change our lives again.” If you really believe that, why accept any scientific advancement at all? Ad absurdum, you’re implying that we shouldn’t go to the doctor to get medicine, but rather we should pray to GOD and use GOD’s method of getting things done, not silly, confused science’s.

“I'm not sure why the belief is that Religious people aren't using their mind to come to the belief in GOD. It makes logical sense to me that GOD created all things. There had to be a starting point. There was nothing and then there was something.” By your logic, you should be able to explain how GOD came to be or else I shouldn’t believe what you say, just as I have to explain to you how the universe started or you won’t believe what I say. Causation arguments don’t get us anywhere. Both sides are unable to prove anything or even give an idea as to the probability of either answer. So unless you can tell me what created GOD, then what created that creator, you’re just as lost as anyone else.

“Just look at Ben Stein's "Expelled". One of the Atheistic scientists said that the beginning of life could have been started from aliens leaving seed on this planet. Come on, he would rather believe that we came from an alien spooging in a puddle than the existence of GOD. That comes back to the fact the most non-believers just don't want to believe that their actions here on earth are being judged by a higher power. Sorry, I don't want to lump you into that group.” I’d post the link, but this site won’t let me. There is a video on youtube of Richard Dawkins and Ben Stein arguing about religion and let me tell you—Ben Stein may know things, but he is no champion of logic. He uses straw man arguments like crack just to make his opponent seem stupid, rather than consider what they have to say. Also, you know as well as I do that the idea of an alien copulating with a plant is not a representative opinion of the scientific community. Also, it’s not that we are concerned with the judgment thing. It’s that we are concerned with the believing in GOD in the first place. If GOD came to me and I had a good reason to believe I wasn’t hallucinating, I would drop to my knees and worship. However, I would be upset with GOD. I’d ask why I was expected to believe before without a good reason.

“I'm sure you realize that you probably are not going to change my mind, just like I realize that I'm probably not going to change your mind. I used the word probably but, probably shouldn't have in both cases. Anyway I just hope that maybe just maybe I have got you to drop your guard enough for GOD to get a foot in the door. If not I tried, just like GOD wanted me too.” Look, I understand where you’re coming from. I really do. I was Christian. I know about the importance of witnessing to others and doing what you can to help as much of humanity reach GOD as possible. But you’ve got to remember that you’re being unintentionally arrogant. I’m not some lost sheep. I’m happy and comfortable in my life. And as for the afterlife, well, there just isn’t any good reason to think that’s real at all. So why worry about it? I can imagine you saying “well, what if you’re wrong?’ And hypothetical you has a point. Just not a strong one. A person shouldn’t believe because they are scared of being wrong. They should believe because they feel it, have good reasons, and want to be close to GOD. But again, those “good reasons” are an issue. And feelings aren’t a good indicator of truth.

Adil

Dude don't get me wrong, I have respect for you even though I think you are wrong. It's been over a month with this and we still haven't said "Yo Mamma" and quit. That being said, I feel you glossed over the fact that opinions can and have affected science outcomes. There are scientists right now using technology and theories to prove the existence of GOD. But it goes against the conventional wisdom of the science community. It doesn't garner a lot of attention because these people are said to have an agenda, and poopooed. I will not say that science has not given mankind knowledge or life saving abilities. I just believe that these things were given to us from GOD. GOD just used these people to get the knowledge out. I most certainly don't hate the pursuit of knowledge. I just look at that as GOD giving us more.

Science, more over the people with agendas in science, does expect us to adapt to their "findings". Then come to find out that the "findings" change again and we have to adapt again. Just an example, look at the Red Cross. CPR procedures have changed so many times what is the point. They seem to do it just to stay relevant. If 15 compressions and two breaths worked 15 years ago then why put us through the revolving door of changes. That may be kind of weak but that point can be used with other examples. It gets to the point that there is no reason to listen to the world of science because it is just going to change again and we'll be expected to change our lives again. You kind of made my next point, with Religion not changing. GOD is the same today as He was 2000 years ago. And He'll be the same tomorrow. He has no agenda, just to get you and I into Heaven.

I'm not sure why the belief is that Religious people aren't using their mind to come to the belief in GOD. It makes logical sense to me that GOD created all things. There had to be a starting point. There was nothing and then there was something. For the earth to not be here and then over billions of years we have a planet, then over millions of years we have everything on the planet, it just seems logical to me that a higher power, GOD, has to be involved. Just look at Ben Stein's "Expelled". One of the Atheistic scientists said that the beginning of life could have been started from aliens leaving seed on this planet. Come on, he would rather believe that we came from an alien spooging in a puddle than the existence of GOD. That comes back to the fact the most non-believers just don't want to believe that their actions here on earth are being judged by a higher power. Sorry, I don't want to lump you into that group.

I'm sure you realize that you probably are not going to change my mind, just like I realize that I'm probably not going to change your mind. I used the word probably but, probably shouldn't have in both cases. Anyway I just hope that maybe just maybe I have got you to drop your guard enough for GOD to get a foot in the door. If not I tried, just like GOD wanted me too.

Thanks again and GOD BLESS.

Jennifer Bobic: “When you consider the absolutely microscopic chance that our universe could have come into existence without intelligent design, and the even more microscopic chance that a human being could come into existence, I believe it takes more faith not to believe in a higher power (which is what we are debating here - not the beliefs of any specific religion). While I understand what you are saying about coming up with your own moral values rather than those of any specific religion or God, I think it is valid to ask what you base your morals upon - and even more importantly, if there is no ultimate giver of values and truth, how do you decide that there is any merit whatsoever to your values. Anyway, I enjoy the debate with you.”

You sound like a swell lady. You seem to be very reasonable and are presenting decent arguments, so I will take them as reasonably and objectively as I can. Argument 1: Improbability of complex life implies creator. This seems believable. This kind of argument was very strong before Darwin’s evolutionary explanations of how simple organisms give rise to more complex organisms over several generations of factors that forced speciation into diverse phylogenies. Now, it is actually very simple to understand how we are as complex as we are. While it is improbable for diverse life to just come into existence, it is not as improbable to consider the origin of molecular DNA/protein processes yielding more complex cells and organisms when we see that populations respond to selective pressures. Argument 2: It takes more faith to not believe than to believe in God. That statement is false for purely definition-related reasons. Say I tell you that there is actually a flying spaghetti monster whose noodly appendages permeate through the cosmos and are the underlying force for everything? Would you really believe it takes more faith not to believe in that than it takes to believe in it? Argument 3: A moral atheist cannot be sure his moral opinions are based in solid and compassionate reasoning. This is actually subtly offensive, but I’m sure you didn’t intend it to be. You’re saying that without a holy text, we have no moral compass, but consider what that means. I don’t have to believe in God to believe it is morally wrong to kill and rape a baby. I’m capable of making moral choices, just as you are. The difference is that I make them for myself and you let a life manual tell you how to live your life and make your choices.

Nicholas Cumberledge: “You want proof of money and beliefs affecting science outcomes, take a look at "Global Warming". You could plug in last weeks temps and other data they use in their "theories" and couldn't figure out the weather from yesterday. If a scientist in his white coat wants to disprove the existence of GOD they can. If a scientist in his white coat wants to prove the existence of GOD than they can as well. Science changes its mind all the time. Eggs are good for you, no they are bad, no the whites are good and the yellows are bad, now eggs are good. With all the deviations in science, you seem pretty sure they got this right or should I say that you have faith in science on this issue. No way they could be wrong. That scares this Christian, I did it again. “

Actually, I would disagree with you that a scientist could prove or disprove the existence of God at this point. Because a scientist uses evidence. You sound like you’re deliberately misunderstanding science. In fact, I think you get it, but are just being disingenuous, hoping that it will get past us and you’ll have won something. And as for science changing its mind all the time, that’s not true either. It’s very hard to convince a panel of skeptical scientists judging your findings and looking for holes that your terrible theories and rationalizations are right. Science is about reproductive results. Things you could test and see for yourself with the right training and equipment. These findings point to answers, but only tentatively. You’re right. I’ll give you that science can change. But science IMPROVES as it changes. Religion stays stagnant, grows old, and some parts become irrelevant. It’s important that you understand that last point, because it seems to be your whole argument that science is wrong. Science doesn’t claim to be right. Science just is. Scientific progress has just come to this point and our current explanations for the way the world works are just based on the best information and the most recent findings. Why would you want to hate the pursuit of knowledge so much? It’s funny—science didn’t wage a war on religion. The facts just don’t point toward god, so religious people got all butthurt about it to where scientific progress was actually set back substantially. The church doesn’t like science because it’s a constant reminder that the most reasonable answer isn’t GOD. Actually, that’s kind of fun. I’m going to do that, too. Thank GOD for the All-Caps key. And about that, I was just busting your chops, but it was seriously to make a point. So much of what is done in the name of GOD doesn’t actually make sense. It has no logical value but people do it because it feels good and right. That’s fine, really. But it just seems to be a common theme. And some decisions shouldn’t be made with the heart. In fact, most should be made with the mind. And while we’re talking about doing what feels right, what feels right to atheists is to be able to have the courage to not believe just because most people do. Again, most people hate atheism. It’s not easy to be the one person in the room who doesn’t want to drink the poisoned punch. Also, don’t worry about capitalizing atheism. That word is a description about what we are not—what does NOT matter to us—not what does.

Chris

I don't believe that satanist are Atheists and am not comparing the two, but is it not conceivable to believe that satanists could possibility "evolve" from Atheism. Again not trying to be mean but doesn't that mentality start somewhere. Just like "radical" Christians have to start somewhere.

By your logic of "evolving" morals you should believe that you are more moral than your grandparents and their grandparents and so on and so on. Maybe you are not saying that personally but your theory does. I, as a Christian, look around and believe that our morals as a society have declined over time or "devolved". Through that decline the thing to notice is the removal of GOD from everyday life. People are living for themselves and not GOD. As for your question "can GOD create a rock so heavy that He can't lift it". I like the one form "The Simpsons", can GOD nuke a burrito so hot that even He can't eat it". That's a noodle scratcher.

Adil

I haven't seen your answer to "Why". As far fetched as GOD as an answer is to you, science's "theories" are to me. Admittedly science's "theories" are so myopic as an answer to "why or even "how" that they are laughable. And don't even act like they aren't. You see how I did that. I used your tactic on you. The fact about science is that money and the belief of the guy or guys in those white coats can and will affect the outcome they come up with. Yes you can say that my beliefs affect my argument but don't act like it don't happen in the science world. (there I go again) In the Creation Museum they have man made artifacts found in coal seams, tools that a man would have used. How can that be? Science tells us that coal formed over millions of years. You want proof of money and beliefs affecting science outcomes, take a look at "Global Warming". You could plug in last weeks temps and other data they use in their "theories" and couldn't figure out the weather from yesterday. If a scientist in his white coat wants to disprove the existence of GOD they can. If a scientist in his white coat wants to prove the existence of GOD than they can as well. Science changes its mind all the time. Eggs are good for you, no they are bad, no the whites are good and the yellows are bad, now eggs are good. With all the deviations in science, you seem pretty sure they got this right or should I say that you have faith in science on this issue. No way they could be wrong. That scares this Christian, I did it again.

I don't only get my thoughts from other men and women. In my everyday life I can feel GOD's presence. He gives me thoughts and ideas. When I go to church I feel His presence, yes there is a man or woman behind the Pulpit doing the talking but He confirms or denies what is being said. I can even feel His presence as I'm writing this. If one calls himself or herself a Christian and only relies on a man or woman than they have missed the whole thing. Rely on GOD is the point. Man can be wrong. Even a man with good intentions.

Let's move on now. When I capitalize GOD it is out of respect for Him. By the way I hit the Caps Lock button. I could capitalize everything that has to do with GOD and not get anymore love, out of Him. He loves all of us equally, even Atheists. You know I'll stop with the whole "radical" Muslim thing. You can compare Christians and Muslims because of Jesus Christ. When I capitalize "Christians" and "Jesus" it is out of respect of what I believe in. You know out of respect of the English language I'll capitalize "Muslim" and even "Atheists" because they are proper nouns. When I capitalized "SAVED" it was for emphatic purposes. You can use the English language how you choose. Respect or not. Don't make judgments about me, I don't believe that I have about you. For one thing I have respect for anyone that does the right thing. GOD is not a respecter of man or deeds of that man. I'm not the important one, He is. Again as I have admitted before, there are good Atheists and Muslims and Buddhists, etc., etc. and I respect them. But it is not my show, it is GOD's show and He will run it the way He sees fit. I choose to follow Him. He says that the only way to Him is to accept Christ as your Savior. Free will and choice comes in here.
One other thing, don't act like there aren't some of you that want to see the government shut me up or thrown in jail, just because I speak my mind. And don't act like you are not sitting there typing, thinking that I'm just an ignorant Redneck (capitalized) because of my beliefs. Oops I did it again. Also I agree with Jennifer Bobic, this is enjoyable

Thank You and GOD Bless (I sure hope He notices I hit the Caps Lock button)

Hi Adil, thanks for your comments/feedback. Actually, I did not say there was no reasonable proof of the existence of God - there is actually proof of God's existence anywhere you look - including inside your own heart and mind. However, to the extent that God is unseen to us at this time (although Christians believe that He did appear to man in the form of His son, Jesus Christ) there is some faith required - just as there is faith required NOT to believe. When you consider the absolutely microscopic chance that our universe could have come into existence without intelligent design, and the even more microscopic chance that a human being could come into existence, I believe it takes more faith not to believe in a higher power (which is what we are debating here - not the beliefs of any specific religion). While I understand what you are saying about coming up with your own moral values rather than those of any specific religion or God, I think it is valid to ask what you base your morals upon - and even more importantly, if there is no ultimate giver of values and truth, how do you decide that there is any merit whatsoever to your values. Anyway, I enjoy the debate with you.

Helen That was the most convoluted setup to Pascal's Wager I have ever seen. I understand you don't think you condemn anyone. You genuinely feel like you care about those of us who haven't seen the light. Conversely, you believe that anyone who doesn't accept Jesus as the messiah is going to (and indeed deserves to) suffer for the rest of time. That's a condemnation--It's just a passive one. It's circular logic to make me accept that The Bible is reasonable evidence and use scripture to make a point about God's existence. I don't believe in God. You want to use The Bible as proof, you're talking to the wrong group of people.

I guess that I should address your point about Pascal's Wager, since it was the last thing you said and, presumably, your point. Look up Pascal's Wager on wikipedia and scroll to the part about problems with it. It is not considered a strong argument. For example, if I accept that it's best to bet for the existence of God, that tells me nothing about which God. If I don't choose yours, I will go to hell, but it I do choose yours, I am picking one out of very, very many (unlikely to have picked the right one). You have to look at it from an atheist perspective, since we are the ones you're trying to convince. If I didn't think any religion was plausible, then was told it's best to bet for the existence of God, which one would I most reasonably choose, given what I know? They are all equivalently invalid. There are more points and that one may be explained better on that wikipedia page. So go there. In fact, everyone should read that. It explains things pretty well.

How many physicians have you encountered, and because of their attitude, you have wondered why they even practice? How many teachers have you been around, and because of their attitude, you wonder why they bother teaching? There are some people who call themselves “Christians” but, the things they say and do… well, let us just say that if they were on trial for being a “Christian“, there would be little if any evidence to prove it.

I am a Christian, and I DO NOT hate or condemn atheists, or anyone! I wonder, why does it seem you are angry with me?

I have nothing to gain by sharing my testimony. Not monetarily, physically or emotionally. I don’t share these things for selfish reasons, or to make myself look better than anyone else! Because I’m not. I’m a sinner, saved by grace. I’m a Christian by God’s grace and mercy. He sought me, and loved me… but I was unworthy of His love or His mercy. I’m not condemning anyone!

What if you had the cure for cancer and didn’t share it… What if you had the answer to world peace and didn’t share it… what if you knew where a lost child is, and didn’t share it… what if you saw something really bad happen to someone else, and didn’t share it… what if you knew where an extremely bad criminal was hiding, and you didn’t share it… what if you knew something that would really make a difference, something really great, and didn’t share it?

Please just think for just a moment…what if my beliefs in God and the Bible are right? Take a good, hard look at my attitude. If I am right, does that make me seem hateful to care about where someone will spend eternity? I’m not hateful. I care! I really care!

Jesus did not come to condemn the world: John 3:16-18, "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Jesus is the only way to heaven: John 14:5-7, “Thomas said to him, 'Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?' Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.'"

The road to heaven is narrow: Matthew 7: 13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.”
I know that God made me, knows me… and in spite of myself, He loves me: Psalm 139:1-18, “O LORD, you have searched me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways. Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD. You hem me in—behind and before; you have laid your hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me, too lofty for me to attain. Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast. If I say, "Surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me," even the darkness will not be dark to you; the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you. For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. How precious to me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand. When I awake, I am still with you.
Hey, if my beliefs are wrong and you die, well…there is nothing to loose, is there? But… what if I am right?

I think i misread "but you want to hold the intangible." I think what you meant was actually that I want proof of your god when there is no possible way of having proof for your god. That, however, does more to harm your side than help it. You're shooting yourself in the foot by admitting there is no reasonable proof of what you believe.

"A true intellectual examination of our existence and that of the universe can lead to only one conclusion - that there is an intelligent designer behind it all.I cannot conceive, for instance, upon what one would base one's moral values without a belief in a higher power." A true intellectual examination of the universe leads to one lack of conclusion--one that comes by not accepting any view entirely because there is no conclusive evidence for anything. We atheists tend toward science only because it gives logical, reproducible results. The question of God is currently out of science's power to prove or disprove, so the logical position is a claim to ignorance. Yours is a claim to certainty. It's your position that requires faith. Mine requires a refusal to believe on faith alone. And I base my moral values on what I think that people should treat one another. It's far better to make those decisions for yourself than to accept a prepackaged and outdated system of morals. Not saying the morals themselves are bad--just saying it takes constant vigilance and self-evaluation and you're simply not willing to change.

"Imagine how it would be, to trade all you know for one ounce of true belief...and you'd learn the peace of that place...but you want to hold the intangible..." I know the peace of that place. I was Christian for most of my life. Let me tell you--the peace of that place is nothing compared to the peace that comes with the freedom of living your life for yourself and others--not for the invisible guy in the sky. And ironically, your quote is hypocritical. You are the ones who hold onto the intangible. It's the intangible that I refuse to be sure about.

Sorry - I misspelled when I quoted the song - it's "one OUNCE of true belief" - that's what I get for not proofreading! :)

I would defend to the death the right of atheists to believe what they believe (or don't believe in this case) and to put up any number of billboards. I do not hate atheists or anyone else. Having said that, I have to say that it takes as much faith to be an atheist or agnostic as it does to believe in God. A true intellectual examination of our existence and that of the universe can lead to only one conclusion - that there is an intelligent designer behind it all. I cannot conceive, for instance, upon what one would base one's moral values without a belief in a higher power. We can conjure our own moral values and base them upon any number of things - but we have no basis upon which to condemn others who have differing values if there is no one standard to follow. In fact, we see the fall-out of this moral relativism and tolerance all around us today. One man may believe it is wrong to steal from anyone, while another believes it is moral to rob from the rich to give to the poor. Who is to say which one is wrong if there is no standard - and to what fallible human can we look to for our standards? Is faith required to believe in God? Certainly - but it is also required to not believe in God. Please believe that I have no animosity towards those of you who do not believe - I would merely quote a song..."Imagine how it would be, to trade all you know for once of true belief...and you'd learn the peace of that place...but you want to hold the intangible..."

Marion Utt: “Satan is cruel! He is behind every rape, murder and any form of abuse.”

See, this is why religion is dangerous. You’re giving Satan responsibility for rape, murder, and any form of abuse, when it’s bad PEOPLE who commit these offenses—not some being we can’t even agree exists! You’re not very convincing when you tell people that your god exists by explaining how the universe would be if he/she did exist. That’s hypothetical and beyond the point. I’ll admit that if your god were real and what you believed was true, then you would be right. But to say you’re right, I have to accept that you’re right. That’s called a circular argument.

Nicholas Cumberledge: “Adil, you say that I may have oversimplified things with the "two cells bumping into each other", but your side never can give us the answer to "WHY". Human beings are predestined to search for a higher power and the answer to "WHY".”

It’s not good enough that I have an answer to the “why” question. That answer has to be convincing and provable. Yours isn’t, which is why a lot of atheists marvel at how sure you are. And to really drive the point home, atheists don’t claim to have the answer to everything. We turn to science for reasonable hypotheses, but no scientist will ever tell you anything is for sure. Science accepts revolutions in thought by hard evidence. You accept only the thoughts you get from men and women who get their thoughts from other men and women. You get your thoughts through a book that may well be fictional. But science is about reproducible results and good logical hygiene. Side note: Why do you put “god” in all capital letters? I understand capitalizing the first one, but do you think God will love you more for holding shift for two more keys? “You can't lump Christians and radical muslims together.” No, but you can lump radical Christians and radial Muslims together. Also, notice how you didn’t capitalize “Muslim,” but you did capitalize “Christian.” If you capitalize them out of respect for their meaning, then it’s obvious how you feel about Muslims. While we’re capitalizing out of respect, why not “atheist?” But that’s a silly question, right? Because we don’t believe in GOD. Forgive me for not capitalizing jesus, christian, christ, or god. There you go again—capitalizing “saved” because it is holy. I’ll bet it drives you nuts that I don’t capitalize the things you think are important. Maybe you’re right. Maybe I should capitalize Christian. I do have respect for the people who do good deeds and that category includes Christians. I also know a lot of good atheists and Muslims. I’m sure this seems silly because it’s just about capitalization, but it’s really deeper than that. You truly believe that you are better than anyone who isn’t Christian. Don’t believe me? Ask yourself the following: “Does my faith allow me to believe a good Muslim man or woman will or should go to heaven?” It’s that arrogance that scares the rest of us. It’s not what you’re doing, but what a bull-headed majority can do to the little guy. And don’t act like there aren’t those of you who would love to see me hanged just for disagreeing with you openly.
Steve: Chris said basically what I want to say, but I have a few comments of my own. Your whole understanding of what it means to be atheist is false. I can’t say I blame you. The only people you talk about atheists with are people who don’t understand them. However, it’s your ignorance that hurts the most. It’s dangerous ignorance because we are doing no wrong, but we are still hated. The thought that matter is all that exists isn’t depressing to me. It’s that very fact that makes me appreciate and value my life. It makes me proud to have one at all, since life is so rare and unlikely. What it means to be human has no precedent in history and I am lucky enough to experience all of this beauty for one fleeting moment in time. You want to spend your life stressing about something in the afterlife I don’t even believe is there. So explain to me why you think my life is so depressing? If anything, yours seems worse and I do pity you—probably in the same arrogant way you pity me, only I will take your ideas seriously when you present them logically and with evidence. You, on the other hand, don’t care about why I don’t believe. You just assume I’m wrong before I even open my mouth. My morality comes from what I believe should be how people, including myself should treat one another. That is sufficient to live a good life and, indeed, better than dogma you accept unquestioningly. Also, to say no book is equal to the Bible, I have to say…have you actually read that thing? It’s really boring. And so far, A Scanner Darkly is pretty good. Actually, I liked Catch-22 a lot better than The Bible. And seriously, if you’ve read If You Give a Mouse a Cookie, there’s no contest. The point I’m making is that you think the book is great because it sold more copies than anything and because it’s your holy book, come on. That’s not fair. Ignoring the “it’s your holy book” thing, just because a book sells a lot of copies doesn’t make it that great. Look at textbooks. And don’t give me that “but those are just for learning stuff out of” stuff either. That’s what yours is supposed to be for, too. And if you don’t that Shakespeare is way more moving than “A begat B. and B begat C,” then I guess we’re at an impasse.

Helen: “There is a God, and He made me and His sole purpose for me is to share with others what He has done for me and in me ... and also He wants me to tell others, so that they, too, can have that same hope in their lives!

Guess what the name Helen means…. Light! God want me to be a “light” for him… to tell everyone His good news… and that’s my heart’s desire until I take my last breath.

Oh, I have had various hardships and many, many trials, over the course of my life …but God has always been there for me. He has never left me and He has always seen me through those storms.

My mom is in heaven now, has been there for 22 years now, I’m looking forward to our grand reunion someday!

God IS the answer to every question!” A couple things: First, it’s hard for me to even respond to this because I don’t know how to say what I mean without seeming insensitive. You have to understand that, to me—in what I believe—there is no such thing as a life after this one. And it’s not easy to say that to someone who believes it as much as you—especially when your intentions are so obviously good. You’re a sweet lady, Helen. I can tell. But you can’t blame me for not accepting what happened to you as good enough evidence for me. God didn’t name you Helen, Helen. Your parents did because they loved you and that’s what they wanted to call their special baby girl. You may be the light in your parents’ lives, but it just seems to me like anything related to god or heaven, no matter how beautiful or moving, is still just a delusion of grandeur.

One moment after they die, they will believe in God. But, it will be eternally to late. After trillions and trillions of years, hell will be no cooler and time will be no shorter. The torments of hell are beyond description. Satan is cruel! He is behind every rape, murder and any form of abuse. May God have mercy on their souls and remove the veil from their hearts so that they may believe.

You may not believe in God now, but you will. Even Satan believes. Our Holy God shows His self faithful and true.

Nicholas

The "black metal" craze wasn't brought about by atheists. Whatever they were, the definitely weren't an atheist group, and I would call them satanists. Also, as I said in the post before yours, I think that our morals evolved just as we did. It's very obvious to me that our laws say "don't kill people" because it's essential to the well-being of everyone that nobody murders anyone else. Of course, people do commit murder, and if god was so great, why does he let this happen.
One question for you Nick: Can god create a rock so heavy that he can't lift it.

To believe in god is to deny logic, which is a terrible thing in and of itself. Add along the fact that eighty percent of people stay in their parents religion, and we've got a recipe for a highly delusional, illogical country.

Helen, It's going to seem that i'm being really harsh on you, please don't be offended. I truly believe that your parents should have gotten an abortion. That's not me being a jerk, just my personal beliefs. If my fiancee and I had a baby, and the doctor told us the same thing, I would definitely suggest to her that we should go through with the abortion. It would just be the humane thing to do if I knew the child had a high probablility of being seriously disabled or dying. To be honest, I'm still a little shaky on the prospect of partial birth abortions, but if abortions are performed before I think three months, the baby still hasn't developed a nervous system.

That being said, I'm glad you were born, and I'm glad that you found happiness in your life.

Have you ever came to a place in your life where you wondered why you even exist? ...or why does anyone exist?

I did.

I was in college when I really started searching for the meaning of my life... and life in general.

I couldn't get the questions out of my head. Day after day, I asked myself: are we only here to live, grow, get an education, pursue a career, marry, have kids and then die?

Why?

I started watching everyone around me, to see if I could find the answers. One couple had everything materialistic you could hope for and dream about...more money than most people could even spend in a life time... and yet they hardly spoke, never smiled, and seemed so miserable all of the time.

I grew up in a Christian home, and went to church most of the time... yet, I felt that God was definitely my parent's thing. It really wasn't mine. Oh, I was a very "good" person, but to me... the bible was just a lot of "stories" that didn't have anything to do with me.

Then, I started asking myself some more questions. Why do I do some things...and I don't do other things? Is it just because my parents say so? Is it just because I don't want to get into trouble? What is "right" and "wrong"? Is it only what someone else determines for me?

In Medical Ethics class we were asked to do reports on various subjects. Mine was euthanasia... legally allowing and helping folks to die when they decided they wanted to. This got me thinking even more. Why do some folks seem to have to suffer more than others? Why did God allow it?

Someone else reported on abortions. After hearing their speech, the teacher asked for comments from the class. I couldn't stay quiet, so I stood up and told my story. My mom had poison ivy so bad one time that she had to have a lot of shots and various medications, not knowing at the time she was pregnant for me. Well, when my parents found out that my mom was pregnant, the doctor advised an abortion. He said that I would probably die before I was born, or if I was born alive.. I would definitely have severe disabilities and/or disfigurements from all the medicines that was administered. They chose to have me, and to trust God. Oh, they prepared themselves over the next few months for whatever would take place, but they never stopped trusting God to help them through it. I was born... with nothing wrong!

When I finished telling the class my story, no one said a word. Everyone was silent for awhile, and then the teacher just dismissed it.

That night, and all the next morning, I thought long and hard about my parents and their faith in God.

Then I knew the answer... I was here, simply because God loved me that much .... that He made me... and HE had a purpose for me! I knelt by my bed, and told God I wanted to be His child, that I knew I was a sinner and because of my sin that I wasn't going to be with him in Heaven someday. I knew then, why Christ died on that cross 2,000 years ago... it was for me. It was so I would have a promised place in Heaven with him some day. He did that for me!

After that prayer, my life changed drastically. Inside I felt a peace that I had never had before. And God's Word... I not only could read it, but for the first time I could understand it! You see, unless you are God's child, a new creation, the Bible doesn't make any sense. It's just another book. That's another part of the marvelous way you know for sure you are saved... when God's Word makes sense to you.

There is a God, and He made me and His sole purpose for me is to share with others what He has done for me and in me ... and also He wants me to tell others, so that they, too, can have that same hope in their lives!

Guess what the name Helen means…. Light! God want me to be a “light” for him… to tell everyone His good news… and that’s my heart’s desire until I take my last breath.

Oh, I have had various hardships and many, many trials, over the course of my life …but God has always been there for me. He has never left me and He has always seen me through those storms.

My mom is in heaven now, has been there for 22 years now, I’m looking forward to our grand reunion someday!

God IS the answer to every question!

Chris

Just look up the "Black Metal" craze. Very anti-Christian, very atheists. No maybe they have church burnings lately or locally but it did happen in the 80s and 90s in Europe. Also, and you know that I have to say this, the separation of church and state does not apply to that. Here comes the cleeshay "Freedom of Religion not freedom from Religion". The founders referred to GOD many times. That clause comes in because in England, where they came from, the king said that everyone had to go to the Church of England. The founders of this great country knew that there were other sects of Christianity or even other religions altogether, so how can you truly be free if the government makes you believe the way they want you to. Again look at the founding documents and look at the beliefs and comments of the founders, they believed. One other thing, they also believed that the government shouldn't own land anyway. So there is another way to think about it.

Sorry, just one other thing. How did you get your morals? Did your parents teach you right from wrong? I believe that if you are a good moral person than someone in your life passed that along to you. And good for you. Who passed those morals to them, and whom to them? Can you say that everybody in your life is an atheist? Has your family been atheists for generations? Probably not. But I don't want to make judgments, so I'll quit. I know that there are a lot of good people out there that don't have anything to do with GOD, I'm related to a bunch. So if anything, stay a good person and may GOD put someone in your life to help you get over that hump.

Thank you and GOD BLESS

Steve, I just want you to consider one thing. Is the only reason that you follow the law your belief in god? If so, you should consider that maybe you aren't all that good of a person. I think (and there is a lot of evidence backing me up on this instead of just one ancient book that's been translated dozens of times, and which no doubt has numerous mistakes. Not that it matters, a mistake in a book of lies, doesn't make any difference) the code of morals we have are evolved just like us. Our ethics give us the best chance of surviving vis-a-vis survival of the fittest.

I would like to give my view on the billboard. My view starts with questions. In the opening statements of a member of the United Coalition for Reason, it is stated that they are moral citizens who care deeply about family, community, state and nation, this is a view that true Christians take. The only problem with being an atheist, is how can you say for sure what morality is. Please define morality. If there is no God, who can say what morality is? What is right or wrong? What is the purpose of life? Why do people have a conscience and where does it come from? Not believing in God would leave a person unsettled. To think that matter is all that exists, is a depressing thought. Where is hope? How do you account for the complexities of life, the endless varieties of plant life, the earth at just the right distance from the sun, the oxygen just happens to be the right amount, and hundreds and hundreds of different species of different animals. If there is no God, we have another problem. Imagine for a moment, that the only thing that sums you up totally is your physical body with a brain, and it's neurons firing thoughts that are ultimately meaningless. Again, no purpose. To grow old, and die, and be forgotten, that's sad. True, in this world there are a lot of problems. People are suffering in many different ways. Life can be hard at times. But, there is a good thing, laughter. Is that meaningless, also? To see something that looks bad, but it turns out good, is that meaningless? So, without God, how can you find meaning? I understand, people can be confused and perplexed at all the different religions that there are, all thinking they are right. So, why would God allow such confusion? If a person looks closely at some religions, they run into a wall. But, I personally believe the Bible is God's infallible Word. For a book to be written over 1500 years by different authors, at different periods of time, and it all comes together like one mind... is amazing. There is no book in history its equal. It was completed somewhere around 70 A.D. Isn't it amazing how we date history BC and AD. It sounds like something awesome happened. It gives an account of how we got here. It gives an account of what went wrong. It gives an account of God's remedy. We say "what went wrong"? Well, God gave us the ability to make choices that separates us immensely from animals. We were created in His image. Wouldn't you want someone to like or love you out of their own will, instead of being programmed to? God wants us to make a choice. An omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God who wants to have a relationship with each one of us. But he does not force himself upon us. We chose not to listen to God in the Genesis account. Since then, all creation groans and travails over sin. Sin simply means this, missing the mark. An ancient archery term, meaning you missed the bulls eye. We missed God's mark. This is why Christ, God's one and only sinless Son, came, and walked this earth for 33 years. His death, burial and resurrection brings us back to God. All He asks is that we simply believe that. And what is great about the four gospels; Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? They all give account of the same event, which adds credibility to the Bible. I might add, too, it is amazing, but I am not too sure many people think about it, but we watch a ball drop every year in Times Square with thousands of people cheering... do they even consider what "2009" means? Christ's birth! It says 2009 on our calendars. We still function on a seven day week, that is from Genesis. Job lived thousands of years ago. And in Job 26:7, Job knew that the earth hung on nothing. And in Job 26:10, he knew he was on a round ball, thousands of years before scientific verification. Job suffered much, but he did not turn his back on God. He realized that everything he had was from Him. And even though he lost everything, he still knew God was the great I AM. God returned everything to him, and more. In Job 40:15-24 and in Job 41:1-34, it's amazing, but a description is given of 2 beasts that sound very much like a dinosaur. So, if God created everything in 6 days, man and dinosaurs co-existed. You won't find the word dinosaur in the Bible. This word came about in the mid 1800's, when they found fossils of these giant animals. And millions of fossils in rock layers? Sounds like a lot of water to me. All of this tears down evolution. So, if we are created in His image, we have a purpose, we have hope, we have an eternal God, that gave us an eternal soul. We can define morality. We are given a conscious. We have the ability to enjoy things. He is the Creator of all things, seen and unseen. Writer, C.S. Lewis, was a proclaimed atheist in his college years. But, the more he read the scriptures, he came to know Christ as his Saviour. Humorously, he said, "If you are an atheist, you can't be too careful about what you read." I'm not attacking you. Just consider things further. Study the life of C.S. Lewis. I think I'm done. It's hard to talk about these things in just a few words.

Nicholas, can you cite an example of a "radical atheist group" that burned a church down? Please? Also, the cross shouldn't be on display at a court house, or any government building. That goes along with the ten commandments, and any other religious symbols. It's called separation of church and state.

Adil, you say that I may have oversimplified things with the "two cells bumping into each other", but your side never can give us the answer to "WHY". Human beings are predestined to search for a higher power and the answer to "WHY". I'm not sure how you fill that need or void. When I said "That hasn't been proved either", I was just bouncing back off you guys. In my eyes it is proven everyday just by looking around, but I no we won't see that the same. Thank you for not lumping us all in with radical muslims . You know that atheists have a radical side also. Churches get burnt down, Nativity Scenes get vandalized, and court cases get brought up all the time. Look at the Cross the has been displayed in Arizona (I believe) since WW II. What is the harm in that. The billboard in question is not a problem to me. I don't really like it, but whatever. You know the greatest and most detrimental gift that GOD gave mankind is free will. You can make up your own mind on anything, including whether or not GOD exists. I'm not one of those "holier then thou" Christians that believe you should be Legislated to do the right thing, that never works anyway. As long as the atheists don't try to Legislate GOD out of everything than people will be free to make up their own mind. GOD could use that billboard to HIS benefit. Someone may read that billboard not knowing what to think and go to the website and realize that atheism is not the way for them. Michael Compton in MGW, if you won't look at the Bible and consider it, I don't think that I'll watch your movie. Are there people out there that look at religion and go too far, yep. You can't look at the Bible and Christ's teachings and come to the conclusion that if someone fails to believe in it then it is ok to blow them up. You can't lump Christians and radical muslims together. The Koran says to take out the infidel in the name of Allah. The premise of a daughter getting raped and pregnant is touchy. If an abortion was the option that the family came to, so be it. To me life is a gift from GOD. If there weren't the push to get rid of GOD in all aspects of our lives, then that family could turn to him for the answer. I believe that if GOD is not forcefully removed from our lives than HE can compete with what the rest of the world and the enemy "yes satan" puts out there. Given a chance GOD will move in everyone's life. So as a rebuttal, I believe that life is precious and should be treated that way. Again I don't believe that abortion should be illegal, but I believe that both sides should be presented before a decision on ending an innocent life is made. Your comment about embryonic stem cells doesn't really fly because studies and tests have proved that adult stem cells are working better anyway, so why push embryonic stem cells. It is just because of the abortion issue. if you are thinking that I said something about atheists being against a free society, that is not where I was going. Even though I can't figure out where you picked that up. You do have to admit though when anyone pushes to take a freedom away from anyone that is against a free society. If atheists push to take GOD out of peoples everyday lives than maybe you oculd say that. Also to look at the founding papers of this free society GOD is prevalent. "This is the sort of silly, specious 'reasoning' that drives the logical among us insane. If that paragraph honestly/accurately represents your thinking on the subject, then no amount of discussion or debate is going to reach you - Ever" That is kind of like saying "yo mama". So I can assume that a point was made. I certainly believe that I have a grasp on the fundamentals of the founding of this country. I did not say that strip clubs or beer joints or liquor stores should be illegal. In fact before I got Saved I thought they were just fine. Now I have other things in my life. My point was simply that if churches or a billboard that invites people to church or anything that is related to Christianity in public is offensive to atheists, then some atheists believe that those symbols should be gone. Why not concede then if Christians are offended by billboards or strip clubs or beer joints, etc. etc., then those symbols of the world should be gone, too. Again I believe that free will is the greatest gift from GOD and as long as GOD is left as an option to everyone then GOD will be the choice that will be made by most people. Thanks again and GOD BLESS.

"So many of you have no understanding of the calm peace you get when you know where you will go when you die...or the feeling of love and joy you get knowing your savior is always with you.

It must be incredibly lonely being atheist...thinking your passed family members are gone and you will never see them again. It must be even more lonely and confusing being agnostic...wondering which is right...never knowing. "

Robin, just because something sounds nice and makes you all warm and tingly on the inside does not make it true, certainly you must understand this. Being an atheist is anything but lonely; I live my life to the fullest knowing that this is the only one that I get. I feel bad that religious people have to spend so much time in church instead of pursuing something rewarding.

Nicholas Cumberledge: First of all, “life just started because two cells bumped into each other 4 billion years ago” is a disgusting oversimplification of the organization of life from atoms to molecules and life. You’re trying to make the concept sound stupid by using disingenuous diction. “That has never been proven either.” This statement does more to hurt your side than help it. Yeah, we can’t make claims about what happened in prehistory with absolute certainty. But why can’t you take the next logical step and not believe someone’s fairy tale about the same period in time? Where is the disconnect? “I'd like to believe that we, the human race, is here for a reason.” Why does the truth depend on what you want to believe? Also, it’s pretty amazing that you can say “Do you realize that to a Christian anything that is not of Christ is against Christ?” and “Christ teaches love and forgiveness” in the same breath. It’s not the people who get the message of the Bible that I’m concerned with, obviously. Just like the 911 terrorists weren’t mainstream muslims. It’s the crazy, radical fringe groups that pose a danger to everyone else. And just read a history book to see how the majority imposes its will on the minority. It’s not the “teachings of Christ” that are a danger to us—you’re right. It’s people like the guy a few comments down saying “if this were in my hometown, we’d burn it down.” Think. “Freedom and Liberty are two big things that Christ is about.” Then what is wrong with this billboard?

I don't agree with your religion (or, perhaps more accurately, the politics of your religion)......As i see it, while religion is something that may be nice/comforting for people on a personal level, it is a huge impediment to human progress on all levels when writ large.

While I personally have no expansive comment on the substance of your post, i think it clearly came from a kind, thoughtful place - so thx for that, Robin. Good luck to you.

So many of you have no understanding of the calm peace you get when you know where you will go when you die...or the feeling of love and joy you get knowing your savior is always with you.

It must be incredibly lonely being atheist...thinking your passed family members are gone and you will never see them again. It must be even more lonely and confusing being agnostic...wondering which is right...never knowing.

"Adil. If Christians got their "agenda" across how could it be a danger to anybody?"

Nicholas - If you really don't understand the basis of people's fear of zealotry, go watch 'A Handmaid's Tale' for a very simplified version of the types of things that cause people concern.

Or look to the theocracies of the middle east - the basic tenets of the major religions are very, very similar in practice - if unchecked. Sweet and kind when spoken/theoretically, but brutal and repressive when imposed on a government and a people.

You say 'Christ teaches love and forgiveness' - but what i SEE is 'My religious tells me that even though your 14 year old daughter has been raped, we are going to force her to carry that baby to term - because all life is beautiful and my religion knows what's best for your life and that of your daughter'.

Keep your religion away from our daughters.

You say 'Christ teaches love and forgiveness' - i SEE 'my god tells me that every embryonic cell is precious, therefore thanks to my decision to be a christian, i'm going to work and work and work until the laws governing scientific research reflect my personal religious faith - Sorry if people die of potentially treatable diseases - but god loves those stem cells.'

Keep your religion away from our hospitals and labs.

^ I could go on in that vein ad nauseum, but hopefully the point has been illustrated sufficiently.

To suggest that enshrining religious precepts in law is not antithetical to the most basic principles of a free society is patently absurd (if that was your point - i don't want to put words in your mouth).

"So is anybody going to do anything about the two strip clubs or the three bars or the liquor stores that those Christians have to pass on their way to work. Atheists can't see that even though they are the minority they have the majority of the world today."

This is the sort of silly, specious 'reasoning' that drives the logical among us insane. If that paragraph honestly/accurately represents your thinking on the subject, then no amount of discussion or debate is going to reach you - Ever.

That paragraph is the perfect example of the tortured 'logic' to which i originally referred. Among other things, it displays a fundamental lack of understanding of the American system of government.

It's not my intention to sound nasty or insulting - but frankly, i feel that your kind of thinking is terminally dangerous. I think it represents the only real threat our country faces.....Not invasion or war....not terrorism....not natural disaster....but a smiling, patronizing enemy within. An enemy so convinced of it's own correctness and moral authority, that it would happily dismantle (what remains of) the Bill of Rights - because, as you said: "If Christians got their "agenda" across how could it be a danger to anybody?"

That statement makes me shudder.... It's absolutely terrifying.

"I don't believe that you posted your comments from jail so you are indeed free to your beliefs." - Yep....So far, Nicholas - for the most part. Generally speaking, one is better served by bringing the subject up BEFORE the remaining freedoms are gone... kinda irrational to wait until they're gone to start ringing a warning bell.

We do agree on one point - "I thank the moderator for leaving it up this long so others could get in on it."

hear hear.

Adil, Dave, Roger, etc, etc. You guys beat up on religious people, more over Christians, because you can't see how we go on just in "faith". Well in my eyes it takes more "faith" to believe that life just started because two cells bumped into each other 4 billion years ago. That has never been proven either. I'd like to believe that we, the human race, is here for a reason. I read on here that some of you are beat over the head with seeing Christian billboards on your daily drives, but nobody will do anything about that for you. Do you realize that to a Christian anything that is not of Christ is against Christ? So is anybody going to do anything about the two strip clubs or the three bars or the liquor stores that those Christians have to pass on their way to work. Atheists can't see that even though they are the minority they have the majority of the world today. I'm not exactly sure how Christians are "posing a danger to the rest of us", Adil. If Christians got their "agenda" across how could it be a danger to anybody? Christ teaches love and forgiveness. Maybe you have got your toes stepped on in the past by Christians, but in no way are the teachings of Christ a danger to anyone, unless you end up in Hell. That is not Christ's choice it is yours. I really can't figure out how Christians have "proven more than willing to foresake the most basic American principles in service of their religion", Michael Compton in MGW. Freedom and Liberty are two big things that Christ is about. I don't believe that you posted your comments from jail so you are indeed free to your beliefs. I've read this thread a couple times and can't believe that it is still up. I thank the moderator for leaving it up this long so others could get in on it. Anyway I figure this ought to be a fine time to get me trusty ol' shotgun an' me bible an' hop in my jacked up four wheel drive and go to church. GOD BLESS.

"You want to give God all the credit for everything good, give sinners all the credit for bad things, and the more radical of you start imposing your will on the rest of us with force. It's annoying and scary for us. You're a dangerous majority and you reinforce each others' poor logical hygiene to the point where you pose a threat to the rest of the world and, therefore, humanity.

So before you start talking about how I don't understand, how I am ignorant or haven't thought it through, realize how ironic and funny it is to me that you think I'm the one who doesn't understand."
hear hear....Very well said, Adil.

"say something ignorant and have the same opinions that Dave and Adil have,"

The rest of your post was just about how you believe in God, how I am wrong (without proof) and how I'm going to hell while you go to heaven.

Also, what is ignorant about what I've said? You make it sound like I don't understand your side of things--like I, myself am the one making claims with bad reasons. You are very mistaken. I was a christian until I turned 18, when I started questioning some of the obvious contradictions in what I believed. (In fact, I went out of my way to contact a pastor and get baptized at 15.) I know that people like you don't care if you are living your life by a contradictory creed. You don't care that it doesn't make sense because you grant that God is real before you make your case that God is real. When you come across something like "How can a perfect, benevolent, omnipotent, omniscient god create a world with so much evil in it? Wouldn't a more perfect world have just slightly less evil in it?" you just grant that things are perfect because you grant that god is perfect and has the qualities stated before. From that, you not only assert, but genuinely believe that all of the evil in this world is justified. After all, God made things perfect, therefore God made things perfect, right? This circular sophistry is disgusting for two reasons: 1) it reinforces your ability to delude yourself and pose a danger to the rest of us and 2) it is insulting to those who have to actually suffer unjustified evil in the world--like jews. (If you didn't understand that, I'm saying you would say that the amount of evil during the holocaust or otherwise to jews was justified because you grant that God (It's annoying having to go back and capitalize that word, because I keep forgetting it's important.) wouldn't have made an unjustified amount of evil in the world. So you basically rationalize the holocaust, which is disgusting. I'm not saying you personally do these things, but if presented with a problem, you never assign responsibility in the right places. You want to give God all the credit for everything good, give sinners all the credit for bad things, and the more radical of you start imposing your will on the rest of us with force. It's annoying and scary for us. You're a dangerous majority and you reinforce each others' poor logical hygiene to the point where you pose a threat to the rest of the world and, therefore, humanity.

So before you start talking about how I don't understand, how I am ignorant or haven't thought it through, realize how ironic and funny it is to me that you think I'm the one who doesn't understand.

Amen Rebecca

Adil: Granting that god exists (which is hard), when I reach the pearly gates or whatever is supposed to happen and God asks me what I have to say for myself, I will say two things: 1) You can't blame me for using the gift of reason that you gave to me so that I may rationally not believe in you. 2) If you wanted me to believe in you so badly, why didn't you give me good reasons to do so?

First of all when you stated "God asks me what I have to say for myself, I will say two things:" ...You won't be saying anything, because God is so Great and Powerful that when you or when anyone sees him everyone will be in awe!

Second, you can be the sweetest, kindest and most generous person in the whole wide world but if you are not saved and have been born again you will not be going to heaven. Instead of an ETERNITY IN HEAVEN that person will be spending and ETERNITY IN HELL.

Adil:" The jerk upstairs."

Adil when you made that statement, that just really ticked me off, but the first thing that came to my mind is that you are the fool and I know no one has mentioned this so I will, but if you believe that you are not a sinner, the bible says you are a fool, because EVERYONE, christian or non-christian or whatever a persons belief is, is a sinner.

Adil you stated previously and I quote "lynn, I'm not allowed to post the link apparently, but there was a study done that indicates that atheists tend to have higher I.Q.s than the religious. Your poorly-worded, arrogant, grammatical abortion of a post helps to make that case." Well here is my response to that, I know that I may not be very smart and I'm ok with that, because I don't have to be smart or have a high I.Q to get to heaven, I just need to be saved/born again in the holy spirit to get to heaven and in heaven everything will be perfect, I'm just thankful that while we only spend just a short time here on earth that we don't have to be perfect and obviously we already know that NO ONE is perfect except for God because he is just that AWESOME! Well I could go on and on about all this but I know eventually someone else will say something ignorant and have the same opinions that Dave and Adil have, so all I will say now is that I will pray for both of you and all the other non-believers out there that God will touch them and their hearts in a Mighty way, in Jesus precious name, Amen

Well said, Dave at 10/1/09 at 7:11 PM (and others posting on behalf of the secular world).

I'll confess that i don't have the heart to delve into the bulk of the comments on this topic. I can imagine the circular reasoning that was undoubtedly deployed by the religious posters, and 'arguments' of that sort cannot be addressed with reason - as reason has nothing to do with their position(s).

I will say though, that having been raised in West Virginia (and residing here for most of my life ....40 years or so now), the religious community flexes it's social and political muscle with almost no regard for it's impact on those that do not share their beliefs. Sometimes they are successful, sometimes not - but time and again they have proven more than willing to forsake the most basic American principles in service of their religious agenda. Were they allowed to legislate unchecked, we would long ago have descended into theocracy.

One only needs to read one or two comments to see exactly what i'm talking about. Take 'ONLY SICKOS!!!!!!! 9/30/09', for example: "This should have NEVER been permitted to be put up on a billboard". Any message that does not support this poster's personal beliefs should 'never be permitted'. To hell with the great melting pot - to hell with the First Amendment and free speech - to hell with the separation of church and state - ALL must conform to his viewpoint. It's depraved, and it DEFINES un-American. I would bet my left foot, however, that this poster is rabidly nationalistic, and considers him/herself to be more patriotic than most....And certainly more patriotic than those responsible for the billboard. This specific type of religious disconnect from reality is striking and pervasive.

If one wants to enter a particularly fetid swamp of tortured logic and blatant dishonesty/ignorance - delve into the rightwing/christian effort to convince people that America was founded as a "christian nation". It wasn't - and that is empirical fact. Some confuse the Founders with the pilgrims, but most simply declare up to be down and don't even bother to attempt to reconcile their wish/delusion with historical fact).

I know many good, kind people that practice christianity and never attempt to impose their upbringing on those around them. Sadly, i know a lot MORE people that identify similarly who would be rapturous (if you'll pardon the pun) were they able to dismantle 230+ years of secular American government and install some sort of American Taliban in it's stead.

Speaking of the American Taliban, consider the toxic ignorance of George Bush Sr.: "I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

Rather, I believe it's an issue of critical thinking skills. In my experience, religious people simply do not have the critical thinking skills of non-believers.

Obviously...

But I would have used the correct term "Christians" instead of "religious". Not all religions are based on mythological nonsense. I am, for example, a Humanist. A religion, and I practice my "religious" beliefs and convictions religiously. Ordained clergyman in the Humanist Church, in fact. See: chapeldetaruha.blogstream.com Rev. D. McClung

I've known some very intelligent Christians.

Name just ONE.

The two concepts are simply not compatible. And don't bother naming Billy Graham, he has already been exposed for being a "cleaver" conman.

if they put a billboard like in my town someone would set it a fire thats what the need to do to the one in morgantown

Im so glad to see a billboard like this.We need more like it in Morgantown and areas around here

I would like to know what the web site is so I could check it out .....

drink a beer!

I love the wboy news comment sections. SO MUCH.

Dave, Well stated. Especially the "try not being [christian in the country]" point.

Also, why are people so scared of atheists? When is the last time you heard of a militant atheist group blowing up a building? Never. That's left to the religious fanatics. Perhaps they don't like our growing numbers because they don't tolerate outgroups. Or perhaps it's that they are scared some might be persuaded by ungodly reasoning and logic to no longer believe in the jerk upstairs.

In response to Dave:

Definition of faith-firm belief in something to which there is no proof.....complete trust

So my answer to all of your questions is faith and yes I am very proud of that.

If you are a non-believer how is it that you know as much as you do "right off the top of your head" about the Bible?

Also I would just like to tell you, you are right about us not having evidence(except that there are miracles everyday) or not havingproof(besides the Bible) but again that is where our faith as Christians comes in. I am not faltered by your statements and I will be a believer of MY God until the day I die.

Some of the comments on here are so stunningly ignorant that it's embarrassing to even read them.

I have read studies that indicate that non-believers tend to have higher IQ's than believers. That may be so, but I don't believe that non-believers are necessarily more intelligent than believers. I've known some very intelligent Christians.

Rather, I believe it's an issue of critical thinking skills. In my experience, religious people simply do not have the critical thinking skills of non-believers. Let me give you a few examples based on these posts.

From Rebecca: "I'm sure I'll have it all figured out when I'm walking on streets of gold....that have already been laid out for me and are just waiting for God to tell his Son to go get his children."

How can you, or anyone else, KNOW this will happen after you die? You can't. Look at your source for this story: A book written during the Bronze Age by people who didn't know where the sun went at night.

------------------

More Rebecca: (In reference to the Muslim Hell) "I can tell you I am NOT scared of your Hell because it does NOT exist."

How do you KNOW that the Hell taught in the Koran doesn't exist, but the HELL of the Bible does? There is no evidence for either of these places. But, you simply choose to believe in one and reject the other. Does this make sense?

---------------------

Rebecca yet again: "...everything that is in there (the Bible) has already happened....apart from Jesus coming back, but that will be happening all too soon......will you be left behind?"

No one who has actually read the bible would make this statement. Off the top of my head, I can give you three examples of things in the bible that didn't happen.

1. (Jeremiah 49:33, Ezekiel 26:21) God says Hazor and Tyre would be destroyed and put out of existence, but they’re both still full of people and easily found on any map.

2. (Joshua 8:28) “Joshua burnt Ai, and made it a heap forever, even a desolation to this day.” I’m sure this verse will come as a great surprise to the many people who are currently living in Ai and have lived there ever since this prophecy was made!

3. (Matthew 16:27-28) Jesus claims the “Son of Man” will return in the clouds with his father and angels before “some standing here” taste death. They’re all long dead and he’s still not here. It didn’t happen.

--------------------------

From Christian: "If a Christian organization were to put up a billboard such as this one, expressing their love for God, then people like the atheists would say it was a violation of their civil rights."

From Rebecca: "how do think we Christians feel about a huge billboard that states that God doesn't exist at all." Have more absurd statements ever been made? I drive by THREE Christian billboards everyday on my way to work. Furthermore, there are multiple Christian stations on my television cable and car radio. On Sunday mornings, EVERY TV and RADIO station does at least two hours of Christian programming. Beyond that, every town, no matter how small, has a church on nearly every corner.

Every year, JESUS FEST is celebrated in DOWNTOWN CLARKSBURG!!

This country is 84% Christian and yet you somehow continue to hold on to this notion that you are a persecuted minority. This kind of thinking shows a total lack of awareness of reality. You think it's hard being a Christian in this country? Try not being one.

----------------------------

One final example from, who else, Rebecca: "I've got one word for you.....FAITH.....that's what it's all about. You either have it or you don't."

Why is faith in something for which there is no evidence, that no one has ever seen and cannot be demonstrated in any way a GOOD thing? You use the word "faith" as if it's something to be proud of. But, your faith is in the writings of ancient people had no knowledge of germs, so they believed sickness was a punishment from God. They believed the earth was at the center of the universe and the sun revolved around us. Wind was a mystery and no one knew why the sky was blue. Everything they believed about how the world works has been discredited. But, you not only continue to believe these writings, you BRAG about it.

Many of you were indoctrinated into the religions of your parents or community as children and taught not to question it. As a result, you are now adults making embarrassing statements about the world and how it works.

At some point, you must begin to think for yourselves and question things.

Interestingly, there isn't one word in the entire bible in praise of intelligence. What does that tell you?

Ok I am done....I was not trying to push anything on anybody....but if you think I am being offensive on here by saying that my God is the only God exist how do think we Christians feel about a huge billboard that states that God doesn't exist at all. I've got one word for you.....FAITH.....that's what it's all about. You either have it or you don't.

You're mistaken, Christian. Your dogma has permeated like a sickness through every aspect of our culture--even our money has "In God We Trust" on it. If you threw up another billboard saying something about god, we wouldn't be surprised or even care. In fact, it's your right to express your views. However, you can't have it both ways. If you want the right to put up a billboard proclaiming your faith, you can't say atheists shouldn't have the same right. Granting that god exists (which is hard), when I reach the pearly gates or whatever is supposed to happen and God asks me what I have to say for myself, I will say two things: 1) You can't blame me for using the gift of reason that you gave to me so that I may rationally not believe in you. 2) If you wanted me to believe in you so badly, why didn't you give me good reasons to do so?

I have no problem with others expressing their views, no matter how much I disagree with them, but one thing bothers me. If a Christrian organization were to put up a billboard such as this one, expressing their love for God, then people like the atheists would say it was a violation of their civil rights. Each to their own I say, I don't have to agree or approve. But one of these days you will have to answer for your actions here on earth and then what will you say.

lynn, I'm not allowed to post the link apparently, but there was a study done that indicates that atheists tend to have higher I.Q.s than the religious. Your poorly-worded, arrogant, grammatical abortion of a post helps to make that case.

Two thumbs up to Rebecca! I give my praise and glory to his name!

I GUESS ATHEIST believe in the "big bang theory". that we all just combustablly was put here. And all the plants and animals and everything else that was created was just put here. Well when the time comes all non-believers will be on bended knee asking for forgiveness. but why wait until you are in front of OUR God to do so?.. Our country was written under god we trust. The devil does his work also in these times.Christians have to take a stand as one. Not divided. We should all pray for each other.As christians thats what we need to do. for EACH OTHER..

Rebecca, What makes you so sure that everything in the bible actually happened? I mean, some of those miracles were pretty unlikely to have happened.

Well deldemcclung then I guess you believe what is in the Bible because everything that is in there has already happened....apart from Jesus coming back, but that will be happening all too soon......will you be left behind?

I'm seeing a theme here. Religious zealots are going so far as to insult and pity atheists by pushing their dogma and insisting the christian god is real, while some rational thinkers are simply making claims about there not being enough evidence. They are deemed by the fanatical majority to be bad, misguided people not governed by logic, but it's logic that dissuades them from religion in the first place. Fellow atheists, there are some people who can't be convinced of reason. But that's not what our purpose here is. It's to call to other atheists and say "Hey, it's okay if you aren't part of the majority. There are those of us who feel the same way." The billboard isn't about saying god isn't real. It's not even about shoving our disbelief in the faces of those who would see such an innocent message as offensive and disgusting. We're just calling on one another and giving each other hope: that not everyone sees the world in blood and crosses.

So please, for everybody's sake, just learn to get along. That's all we need. Let me be atheist without telling me I'm a bad person and I'll let you believe in whatever hocus pocus you want without flying a plane into your house.

Well, it goes something like this: If you claim that something is true, I will examine the evidence which supports your claim; if you have no evidence, I will not accept that what you say is true and I will think you a foolish and gullible person for believing it so.

I'm sure I'll have it all figured out when I'm walking on streets of gold....that have already been laid out for me and are just waiting for God to tell his Son to go get his children. You can believe want to you want I'm not trying to convert you and I'm also not judging the others who wrote comments on here, that is not my place.

I can tell you I am NOT scared of your Hell because it does NOT exist.

Well... so much for that sweet prayer you offered up earlier. I see you went straight to the "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess" line straight out of the Big Book of Jewish Fairy Tales.

I'll make you a deal. When I'm in the Christian hell, I'll yell really loud and see if you can hear me while you're burning in the Muslim hell.

Oh, yes. The Koran says unbelievers like YOU will go to the Muslim Hell. But, you don't believe that, do you?

When you understand why you aren't worried about going to the Muslim hell, you'll understand why I'm not worried about going to the Christian hell.

Unfortunately, I get the feeling you're never going to figure that out.

Dave,

First of all it is not MY God it is the ONLY God and one day you and every other person WILL see Him....whether you believe in Him or not.....and your knee shall bow and your tongue will confess....and He will say depart from me for I never knew you. You don't have to believe me, but if you choose to turn away from Him you will spend eternity in Hell and I for one do not want to join you there.

Yes the world is bad right now, but it is not as you say, God is not to blame for what is going on in the world today it is the lack of Jesus in the hearts of people like you.

Rebecca wrote: "Lord, please give them the proof they need to believe that you have been, are, and always will be in control of this world."

Rebecca, if your God appears to me, I will INSTANTLY drop to my knees and convert on the spot.

I can comfortably say this because I realize that the chances of Jesus appearing to me are as likely as Muhammed or Joseph Smith appearing to you. Religion is based on faith, not evidence.

If you believe in the Christian God, you have chosen to reject Allah, Vishnu, Buddha, Waheguru and all of the thousands of other gods that other people worship today. It is quite likely that you rejected these other gods without ever looking into their religions or reading their books. You simply absorbed the dominant faith in your home or in the society you grew up in.

In the same way, the followers of all these other religions have chosen to reject your God. You think their gods are imaginary, and they think your God is imaginary.

In other words, each religious person on earth today arbitrarily rejects thousands of gods as imaginary, many of which he/she has never even heard of, and arbitrarily chooses to "believe" in one of them.

A rational person rejects all human gods equally, because all of them are equally imaginary.

Father in Heaven, I pray for each one of these non-believers that have made up their minds that you do not exist. Lord, please give them the proof they need to believe that you have been, are, and always will be in control of this world. Father forgive them for they know not what they're saying. Amen.

Dave,

Great Post...enough said!

Rog

Shane, It is not the degree of perfection (being a good person) that gets you into heaven. In fact, sorry to say, a lot of good people are going to hell. The thing that seperates good people and saved people going to Heaven is Jesus Christ! The denomination doesn't save you, good or bad church experiences don't save you, Jesus saves you! Turn your life towards him I beg you!

ONLY SICKOS Wrote: "This is definitely showing the world is getting worse,and God will NOT tolerate such things as this,and all the other sick things that are going on in the world!"

This is exactly how the people who flew the planes into the towers on 9/11 felt about the United States. You have your god. They have theirs. Should we all kill each other because some believe an invisible man lives in the sky, but disagree on which book he wrote?

Do you understand that a Muslim can dismiss the stories and miracles in your bible just as easily as you can point out the flaws in the Koran?

Do you understand that your threats of hell mean nothing when you consider that YOU are in as much danger of going to the Muslim hell as a non-believer is of going to the Christian hell?

Your preacher will tell you that atheism is a religion. Not so. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in a God. That’s it. It has no practices, no rituals, no supernatural claims, no moral claims, no prayers, no laws, no ancestral traditions, no cultural traditions, no canonical writings, no faith, no mythology and no mysticism.

Do you understand that YOU are an atheist because YOU have rejected the majority of the gods being worshipped around the world? It's true. Lack of belief = atheism. Do you worship Allah? No? Then you're an atheist. It's that simple.

“Atheism is a religion in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby.”

Only Sickos,

May I quote you "This should have NEVER been permitted to be put up on a billboard!! He or she that allowed such a disgrace is just as guilty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Its called the 1st amendment, you may want to look into it. Of course being religious you will use the 1st amendment when it suits you. 3....2....1.... Here comes the This country was founded on christian values argument. Don't worry I can prove you wrong there as well!

Only Sickos,

May I quote you "This should have NEVER been permitted to be put up on a billboard!! He or she that allowed such a disgrace is just as guilty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Its called the 1st amendment, you may want to look into it. Of course being religious you will use the 1st amendment when it suits you. 3....2....1.... Here comes the This country was founded on christian values argument. Don't worry I can prove you wrong there as well!

Looks like a lot of people don't know much about history or logic, so let me help a few of you out.

Matt wrote: "If you pass on and God doesn't exist, well that's the end. If you pass on and God does exist, well that's going to be a problem if you didn't believe in God. Not that I'm saying anyone's right or wrong, but logically that's how it works out."

Sorry. That's not how it "logically" works out. For starters, your argument is known as Pascal's Wager. It was first proposed by Blaise Pascal in the 17th century . He was Catholic and referring to the Catholic religion and it's God.

The fault in this thinking is that the premise assumes only one god and one religion. However, there are thousands of religions worshipping thousands of Gods. It's not a simple matter of believing in God or no believing in God. Which God is the correct one? Is it Allah? Vishnu? Amenra? Jehovah?

How about if we just narrow it down to Christianity? Who has the correct path to God? The Catholics? The Baptists? The Mormons? The Methodists? There are over 300 different sects in Christianity alone! The one thing they all have in common, however, is none of them are supported by EVIDENCE.

So, you see, believing in god is not a 50/50 proposition. There are too many gods and too many religions. Since there is no evidence to support the existence of any God, a "logical" person concludes that a God probably doesn't exist.

"The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also." - Mark Twain

@Kevin & Mezzino: Amen.

All non-Christian, non-God-fearing people are always in my prayers.

People, I am not going to give my opinion because ultimately it doesn't count. I am going going to say the fact that it takes confession and baptism to be saved and become a true Christian. "And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" Acts 2:38

"And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days." Acts 10:48

"And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away our sins, calling on his name." Acts 22:16

"For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." Galatians 3:27

"So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls." Acts 2:41

Need I say more?

I will begin by saying that I am an atheist and have been for most of my life, since having my church turn their backs on me in my time of need when I was 12. I don't hold it against any of you, and don't expect you to have any ill will toward me for my beliefs. In fact, I feel that I live a more christ-like life than MANY christains out there who claim to be thoughtful and caring, only to judge their neighbors and committ sin, using christianity as their weapon. There is good and bad in all of society and I feel that if I died tomorrow, and there was a god, I'd be welcomed with open arms because of the way I lived my life. I am courteous, helpful, respectful and would go miles out of my way for my fellow man. Please, don't be "sickened" by my beliefs. I don't try to convert anyone to my side and am not offended by your beliefs. Don't use your religion to drive more wedges into our society. We're all in this together, and we're all different. If we were all cut from the same mold, wouldn't life get a little boring?

If GOD created man, who created GOD? I am Agnostic. Which by definition for those of you who don't even know what it is; a person who believes that the existence of a greater power, such as a god, cannot be proven or disproved in this life. They may believe in the possibility of everything or nothing.

Everyone has the ability to choose their own religion, or non-religion and their own beliefs.

You all that call yourselves CHRISTIANS who are on here (or out there in your own lives) JUDGING the actions of others. Does it not say in your Bible, thou shalt not judge others? It is not YOUR place to judge anyone.

We, as Agnostics and atheists, do not interfere in your beliefs and you should not interfere with ours.

This is 2009, America is and has been a melting pot for all different walks of life for many many years now, although WV has been behind in the times. It's good to see some change.

People should not push their beliefs onto others. I am Agnostic. Someone else may be Christian and believe in GOD. I don't have a problem with their beliefs, please don't have a problem with mine.

god created man in his own image. a speaking spirit with a free will to decide whom to follow. you must serve someone it may be god, satan, or your self (man). god in all his wisdom gave you free will to decide for your self. when the day of truth comes you will only have your self to blame for the choice you made. I can say that this is yet another example of the day of false profits in which live. as for my self i know that jesus died on the cross and on the third day arose again and lives to day. he was the final sacrifice for all of our sins and only by confessing with your mouth out loud as a speaking spirit that this is fact and you believe it to be so, can you have peace and comfort in the fact that you are born again. the sad thing is that one day the people who are responsable for this misguided information will have to explain not only to the people they lead away from god but to god himself for the way they have mislead so many spirits away from the kingdom of god. i pray that god will have mercy on your souls, for he is a good and mercyful god and would forgive you for your actions if you will only ask. it has nothing to do with religion. infact religion has driven more people away from the kingdom of god then any billboard could ever dream of. what it really is about, is your personal relationship with god. when you are in true fear of losing the vessle that carries your spirit around on this earth (for with out it you are illegal in this world and you must be cast into the spiritual world) who are you going to call on?

I am sorry those individuals have not found God in their life. I pray for these people that they may find God and all the glory he can bestow on them. Stating that "evil follows religion" has no basis for an argument, what about all the miracles that follow religion? Everyday is a miracle and we should cherrish what God has granted us. I pray for these people.

Finally, something for those of us who don't follow any religion! I'm entitled to my opinion just like everyone else in this world and it doesn't make be a bad person if I don't believe in God. I believe in being a civilized, honest, hard working, and a helping individual. I volunteer with many organizations, donate money (and obviously time),don't do anything against the law, don't cheat or steal or lie, I'll go out of my way to help people, but for some reason I'm still seen as a "bad" person because I don't believe in God. I'll tell you what, I'm a way better person then a lot of religious people are in this world today and the fact that I'm non-religious should not make me any different of a person. Maybe people should start judging others by not what they believe in but by what they do for others.

@ Matt, I don't know where you live, but here I can't drive more than 2 miles without seeing a 'JESUS' billboard, or at least 3 billboards advertising for people to join some local church, advertising that your going to Hell, or that Homosexuality is a sin. Bumpers with fish, Jesus bumper stickers, car dealerships converted to mega-churches. It's just crazy!

As a non-Xstian, I find these attempts at evangelism offensive, but no one's is going to take them down for me...

I think this ad campaign is great! It's about time someone made a counter point to all the propaganda from the Xstians and their mass marketed messiah.

The only problem is these signs are far to tame to change anyone's mind. To be more effective, they need to point out some of the evil that follows religion. (Like 9/11, witch hunts, pedophile priests, religious leaders preaching against safe sex, god drowning innocent babies in floods, etc.)

Well, everyone is entitled to their beliefs. If you pass on and God doesn't exist, well that's the end. If you pass on and God does exist, well that's going to be a problem if you didn't believe in God. Not that I'm saying anyone's right or wrong, but logically that's how it works out.

Seriously though I'm glad to see this group being involved in community events and such. I strongly feel that all people need to have a moral base, and their participation in the community shows they have that. Kudos go to them.

As for the very negative comments, I can only pray that Christians in this world can start to minister like Jesus intended. Maybe then will people start listening. For more information, refer to the section in your bible labeled "New Testament".

Btw, why aren't there any Christian messages running across those billboards? Food for thought...

jayz how do you get we are even i have a god and he is real people that don't beleave in god then they make me sick do you beleave in him smart ass

This is definitely showing the world is getting worse,and God will NOT tolerate such things as this,and all the other sick things that are going on in the world! I will tell you people this,one of these days you will ONLY WISH you believed in the good lord above!! This should have NEVER been permitted to be put up on a billboard!! He or she that allowed such a disgrace is just as guilty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I thought the punch line would be, "because God is everywhere!" Truth does not change just because someone denys it. God can handle the sign, and will even forgive it being posted if anyone wants to appologize to Him. If God does not exist, then I won't even be surprised after I die. If He does, some people will be forever wondering why they dared call him a liar.

@jay have a god? you make me sick, there we are even!

no god you all make me sick